Episode 1: How Dare a Pop Be Fat?
Listen Here: https://linktr.ee/planetgroovepod
[Music playing in the background.]
Host: Martha is one of the greatest ghost singers of our time. On the opening track and the second single “You’re My One & Only) True Love” from the girl group Seduction’s debut album is lead entirely by Martha Wash.
[Planet Grove: a Black + Queer curation theme song plays.]
“Welcome to my planet.
Welcome to my planet.
Welcome to my planet.
Welcome to my planet.
P-L-A
N-E-T
G-R-O-O
V-E
P-L-A (UH HUH)
N-E-T (WHAT?)
G-R-O-O
V-E
P-L-A
N-E-T
G-R-O-O
V-E”
[Instrumental plays in the background]
Host: Hello everybody welcome to Planet Grove, a Black and Queer curation. Yes! I did get the name from the BET show as I did grow up watching it. [laughs]
Now what is Planet Groove: a Black and Queer curation? It is audio essays and podcasts dedicated to Black culture, Black queerness, Black futures, Black present and past. On today’s episode if you’ve read the title. We’ll be talking about fatphobia in general. But umm…I’ll be talking about fatphobia from the viewpoint of my Blackness, fatphobia in the Black community, fatphobia in the music industry, fatphobia in society in general. So that’s what we’ll be discussing today. Thank you for joining me and hopefully you enjoy this episode.
[Audience cheering in the background.]
Interviewer: Hello darlings.
Izora: Hi baby.
Interviewer: “Listen! This is Izora and this is Marthar [Martha.]”
Martha: “Thank you.”
Interviewer: “Darlings. Listen…I mean it was fab. Listen why did you change your name from Two Tons of Fun to The Weather Girls?”
Izora: “Because of the record it stuck with the opening part it says “Its the..uh Hi, we’re the weather girls.” And it stuck. So we been called that ever since.”
Interviewer: “So what are you gonna do from…well when the next single comes out that’s not about the weather.”
Izora: “Well whichever [laughs] whatever way the checks come we’ll accept it.”
[Audience and interviewer laughs]
Interviewer: “Now listen..listen..tell us..tell us a bit about the video because … and about all of those hunk[ious] men in it because..ah a little dicky bird has told me that actually the whole reason for that was to find Martha here a husband.”
[Izora laughs.]
Martha: “Uh, well see the thing is I’m a … I’m not looking for a husband but it’s fun anyway.”
[Martha, Izora, Host and Audience laughs]
Interviewer: “What about this one here? Is there anybody here you fancy taking [inaudible.]”
Martha: “Well I have…Well see I haven’t checked…I haven’t checked them all out yet but there will be a line at the door you know as we go out and we’ll check…check everybody out.”
Izora: “And I’m accepting..What is it here? Pounds. Millions of pences.”
Martha: “You got enough pounds.”
[They both laugh.]
Interviewer: “Listen now when are we gonna have a chance to see you touring then. You’re doing the tube now but when are we gonna have the chance to see you in the flesh?”
Izora: “How much more flesh you want honey?”
Interviewer: “We want as much as humanly possible.”
Martha: “Well look darling eat your hearts on [inaudible.]”
Host: Growing up in the 90’s you saw the occasional Fat Black Woman on TV and she was either desexualized, singing her heart out, comic relief or paraded around as some freak show on Maury and the like. In the 90’s if you could sing and carried extra…weight, you either masked it with a lot of props or draped in a lot fabric as to not show any skin. Growing up as a fat Black person in America you had to either be funny or be able to fight. I’d like to think I was great at both but that didn’t stop the world from showing me the box I had to stay in otherwise I’d be deemed further unworthy. And while I had examples like Kelly Price, Queen Latifah, the late great Aretha Franklin among countless others…
It wasn’t until sitting in my living room watching VH1 Classic that I saw maybe I could do this music thing. Be in a band. Maybe even front it.
On my TV singing “I might like you better if we slept together” was the Deborah fronted band RomeoVoid. While her skin bare no resemblance to mine, she had a sexual energy to her that was magnetic. She was also fronting a band. A bigger woman fronting a band. I’d never saw it. I immediately wrote down the name in my notebook and stored it until I could find more music and interviews later.
Recently on Youtube I watched an episode of VH1’s “Bands Reunited” series which featured RomeoVoid and it seemed as though a lot of industry support for the group had been dropped because of how Deborah looked. It was the beginning of MTV and no one wanted to see someone who didn’t fit the standard of beauty at that time. Despite what may be said on social media…flat stomachs and thin faces are still the standard even with the ever-changing trend of modifying how you appear. That’ll remain.
In this episode band member Benjamin Bossi tells a devastating story of how she was essentially discarded by the industry.
Benjamin Bossi:
“In 1982, 83 music television was just coming and …uh… visually people were not used to what they were going to see. Deborah, our singer is..a ..big.. girl, big woman. Proud of it. Good big woman. Here’s a story.
We went down to the [Whisky A Go Go]. We get out there. I look out there. Entourage {whistles as to gestures its big} …Clive Davis and x number of people. Deborah Iyall walks on stage. Before we even play! Up! They’re [Clive Davis and entourage] gone! True story. True story. Nothing against you Clive! It’s the industry.”
Host: And this happens way too often in the music industry. In all industries to be honest. In 1976 the legend Martha Wash auditioned to be a backup singer the late great Sylvester. A Black legend who had many respective hits during his lifetime before his untimely passing in 1988. During these auditions Martha was asked by Sylvester if she knew any singers and she brought along her friend Izora Rhodes. They would call themselves Two Tons of Fun and they were featured heavily on some of Sylvester’s most successful songs. During the years of 1981 and 1982 Martha and Izora would go on to have huge Dance hits but it wasn’t until they changed their name to The Weather Girls that they’d have wild success with their anthem “It’s Raining Men.”
One thing I noticed while during my research for this is that whenever The Weather Girls did any kind of press the focus always somehow lead back to their weight. Their weight either brought up through backhanded compliments or made to be the center of a joke. Here you have two beautiful Black women who came up in church singing and the focal point was their weight. While watching the footage I could find online it was beautiful to see two big Black women unabashedly being themselves while wearing their sparkly gowns.
Martha Wash:
“We’ve seen [more] large women at our shows…that have spoken to us and they say “well we’re very glad to see that you’re, you know you’re out there. Large women are out there doing things and before the public and cameras. You know, everything” And they, they feel very happy about it.”
[Two Tons of Fun’ “I Got The Feeling” plays and fades out.]
Host: Now I’ve heard Martha Wash’s voice many times as a child but those times I heard her someone else was mouthing along. I always thought “ain’t no way in hell the person in front of me is giving the vocal I’m hearing!” You can just tell.
Martha is one of the greatest ghost singers of our time. “(You’re My One and Only) True Love” from girl group Seduction’s debut album is lead entirely by Martha Wash.
[Seduction’s “(You’re My One and Only) True Love” plays and fades out.]
Seduction:
“When you came into my life
You showed me what true love was meant to be
You brought light into my shadows
And made me be your number one priority”
Host: Martha went un credited as lead vocalist and was credited as a background vocalist. The vocals were edited in a way to make her voice less clockable. This song would be one of her first hits as an un credited lead vocalist and her first with C+C Music Factory who had produced and written the song for Seduction. For those who have no focal point for who Seduction is. Seduction was a three member girl group which featured member Michelle Visage who would later go on to have success in the group The S.O.U.L S.Y.S.T.E.M with their hit “It’s Gonna Be A Lovely Day” for The Bodyguard soundtrack. For those who have watched RuPaul’s Drag Race you’d know her as one of the judges on that show.
Now back to Martha Wash. Her vocals would also be featured on the singles “I Don’t Know Anybody Else’ , “Everybody, Everybody” , “Fantasy”, “Strike It Up”, “Hold On” and “Open Your Eyes.” by Black Box. Martha once again missed out on royalties for vocals while Black Box’s label lead the public to believe the vocals were those of the supposed lead singer of Black Box.
While Quinol played a part she was also being used to sell an image. Martha Wash wouldn’t be the only person to go uncredited on a Black Box song. Loleatta Holloway was also sampled on the mega hit “Ride On Time.”
Loleatta Holloway:
“It’s an honor to me if people would sample…when they sampled my records but the thing about it is when they don’t give me credit.”
[Black Box’s “Ride On Time” plays.]
“There was a group called Black Box that sampled one of my…”Love Sensation” and the thing about them is they took it and they changed the name. And they changed the song. They sampled the song so much until it sounded like a new song. But it was still my voice.”
[Black Box’s “Ride On Time” plays.]
“Nobody else in London had ever had a record on…that stayed number one more than two weeks. This was number one for six weeks. And I sat there and watched the television. Everyday I saw this girl pantomime my song and she got the credit for it. Okay, they settled now. With Loleatta they made it very clear that I…You know not supposed to talk about it bad so I’m not talking about it bad. I’m very very happy.”
Host: Once again invited to a studio to record demo vocals only for them to be released on finished tracks and not be invited to the party. And it’s apparent why she wasn’t. If you take a look at the women lip syncing her vocals they all share something in common…They look nothing like Martha or Loleatta who is a plus sized woman. All these women are skinny.
The most famous case for Martha Wah would be her second collaboration with C+C Music Factory. The sad part is the woman they had mime her voice could actually sing. Now maybe not as powerful as Martha but she could hold a note and often did live performances with the group singing on top of Martha’s original vocal.
Mickey Burns:
“Your vocals were part of dozens of hits. Some credited..[I did want to go over this] and some un credited. In fact your courtroom efforts have spurred legislation making vocal credits mandatory on compact disc and music videos. Am I correct there?”
Martha Wash:
“Yes. Yes [laughs] you probably have to credit my attorney more than me but yes.”
Mickey Burns:
“And it was a long term process?”
Martha Wash:
“It took a couple of years.”
Mickey Burns:
“Well lets backtrack for a little bit for our viewers that may not be familiar as to what lead up to that. Okay because two of your uncredited top hits were “Everybody, Everybody” by Black Box.”
Martha Wash:
“Mhm.”
Mickey Burns:
“And Sweat better known as “Everybody Dance Now” and that became one of the biggest hooks of the decade.”
Martha Wash:
“Correct.”
Mickey Burns:
“by C+C Music Factory. And in these cases your voice was the hook that made these songs hits. However you were un credited and did not receive the proper amount of royalties. Is that true?”
Martha Wash:
“At that time that was true.”
Mickey Burns:
“Basically hired as a sub contractor?”
Marsha Wash:
“Actually I was in there to..um…um..do it as a demo for somebody else. The song was for somebody else. I went there to do it as a demo.”
Mickey Burns:
“You laid down the track.”
Marsha Wash:
“Exactly.”
Mickey Burns:
“And they realized that your voice was better than anybody else they could come up with.”
Martha Wash:
“I guess…
I guess…”
Mickey Burns:
“I have to ask you this. Is it true that your riff on “Everybody Dance Now” was lip synced by a female model which I think it was.”
Martha Wash:
“Okay. For uh..”Everybody Dance Now” that was lipsynced by Zelma Davis. Whether she was a model or not I don’t know.”
Mickey Burns:
“Could she sing?”
Martha Wash:
“Yes. Zelma can sing.”
Mickey Burns:
“Why didn’t they use her voice?”
Martha Wash:
“That I don’t know.”
Mickey Burns:
“Is it also true that you felt they excluded you as most felt because of your size?”
Martha Wash:
“I didn’t know that the whole thing was going on until I saw the video on TV. I didn’t know anything had happened. I saw the video for the first time and knew about the video when I saw it on TV. In my hotel room. As I was getting ready to do a show somewhere.”
Mickey Burns:
“And how did it feel?”
Martha Wash:
“I just stood there with my mouth hung open. I said ‘I don’t believe this.’”
Host: After dotting I’s and crossing t’s things between C+C Music Factory and Martha were okay. They would eventually go back into the studio together and on the road. This time with Martha credited as a vocalist.
And this story would continue to repeat itself over and over in different forms. From Missy Elliott being credited on Raven-Symoné’s “That’s What Little Girls Are Made Of” she would not be featured in the music video. Missy wasn’t even given a heads up about the song having a music video shoot and in her place they had a skinny woman lip sync her rap. Missy would go on to obviously be one of the greatest artists of our time musically and visually.
Before I forget I would to like to um..and mention this while I’m here um Debby Deb who sang the 80’s song “Lookout Weekend” and you know “When I Hear Music” would not be featured on the cover art of her releases. They had a smaller woman featured on the cover who would sometimes go out and perform the songs as Debbie Deb. Now I wasn’t around so I’ll just say allegedly cause I don’t really know. But this impostor would also you know release music under the name Debbie Deb.
It’s pretty shocking that they didn’t really care they just said “We have your name. We have your music. Fuck you and fuck whatever you got going on.” And like Debbie Deb stopped singing and performing for a long time afterwards which is understandable. Thankfully she’s back but it’s odd to see the music industry.. no it’s not odd because the music industry is very shiesty.
I remember finding the name of the woman who did the Debbie Deb impostor thing but…It was interesting. Alot of people have this memory of Debbie Deb looking a certain way but that was not Debbie Deb that you saw. That was an impostor. I had to take it off course for a second. Now
“Why the fuck would you do that?”
“Because”
“You should have never called me a fat ass Kelly Price.”
Host: When I was 7 I always woke up to my mom either playing Aaliyah’s “One In A Million” album or Kelly Price’s “Soul Of A Woman.” Looking at the cover sometimes I thought it was my mom. My mom, a plus size Black woman who loves to sing whenever she felt like it and often she’d sing “Friend Of Mine.” Kelly Price on her debut album had a hit song after years of singing backup for Mariah Carey. In her debut year she’d go on to sing alongside Whitney Houston and Faith Evans on Billboard Hit “Heartbreak Hotel.” She was a r&b singer who was a popular star. Now fashion for fat people back then wasn’t where it is today but every time I saw Kelly Price she was covered head to toe. Maybe that was of her doing. Maybe that was the only option she was given at the time. Some of her outfits we cute but while she was who she is fatphobia doesn’t stop because you’ve made a name for yourself. Before not signing to the now defunct Jive Records, Kelly Price had to sit down in a meeting with higher ups about her appearance. This shit’s crazy.
Kelly Price:
“Jive Records. On my way into the city. On my way to go sign my lawyer called me he’s like “Today’s signing day. Come into the city. Head to the office.” I’m on the Long Island railroad headed into the city. My cellphone rings “Okay so before you come to the office I need you to go by Jive office. They’re saying they need you to come there before you come and sign the paperwork.” Okay, fine no problem. Go to Jive. Um..”
Terrell:
“I feel like something’s wrong here. The way that she’s going through the story.”
Kelly Price:
“Yeah. Wrong but oh so right in the end. Jeff Fenster who was then the Vice President or the Senior Vice President at Jive Records says “Okay, we all know what we’re here for. Let’s go ahead and say what needs to be said.” So I’m looking at him like “What needs to be said?” “So we know that you’re gonna record this record but we’re gonna need you to lose a considerable amount of weight before we put this record out.” And I’m sitting there and I’m looking like “whew, okay.” So my face is getting warm, I feel my tear ducts filling up and I’m telling myself “You better not cry.” So I take a beat. I take a breath. I look at him and I say “Okay, so um yeah I’m a big girl. This is something that we all know. We knew that when we started negotiating this contract pretty much. And I’ve been a big girl my whole life so I just…my question for you would be who gets to decide how much is enough? What if I lose 50, 60..”
Terrell:
“What does considerable mean?”
Kelly Price:
“‘If I’m okay with what I look like and you decide that you feel like you I need to lose more. Like who decides when enough is enough?’ And there was no answer for that. I thanked everybody and I got up and I left.”
Terrell:
“I’m sorry that happened to you.”
Kelly Price:
“I’m actually glad that it happened because the flip side of that is..What if I went to my lawyer’s office and signed the paperwork and it was sent back. I would of been locked into a deal and probably sat on a shelf.”
Host: Kelly Price would obviously go on to have a successful career in r&b and gospel music.
I truly think we realize how many fat pop stars we’ve had whether that be through crossover or in Dance music. Even the male hip hop trio The Fat Boys who dealt with the same type of treatment on tv shows and etc. Fatness being something like a novelty and not just a body type. Even Notorious B.I.G had to deal with those things but he was always one step ahead when discussing his weight.
In present day Pop culture we’ve had or have fat pop stars like Adele, Meghan Trainor, Mary Lambert, Kelly Clarkson and etc. They all share one thing in common. They’re white. Its only once in a while that we see someone in pop be Fat and Black. We’ve had maybe some men but not many.
There’s this myth that to be accepted you’d have to be talented and respectable to be seen as anything other than a projection screen for people who love putting down bodies that offend them. This I never understood as a fat person myself. What does it mean to be a respectable fat person? Should I hate myself? Should I act shy and hide away from the world? Should I feel shame for my fatness?
The faux concern for a fat person’s health is also a problem because there are many people who treat their bodies terrible. But you see fat as a mistreatment. I see fat as love. Being fat shouldn’t prevent one from being treated like a human being. I could go on about how as a fat person I’m probably having more sex than those mad at me for existing but I don’t measure my worth in desirability.
Fat people aren’t respected in private or in public. Recently I was in the hospital for something I believed to be something more than what I was being misdiagnosed with. Medical mistreatment of fat bodies often leads to easily preventable deaths. In that hospital I could tell these doctors did not care whether I lived or died because it’d be just another fat body in the ground. I had to fight to get the treatment I deserved and still my diagnosis alongside my true diagnosis was just you’re fat.
There is no field that respects fat people. Especially ones that are Black. That brings me back to our conversation about fat Black pop stars.
In 2015 I found out about Lizzo who was then still an Independent artist. It was either on youtube or something that I saw Lizzo’s “My Skin.” I had heard of her before but never really paid her music any attention but that song caught me. I may have cried the first time I saw the music video. It was a celebration of bodies and Lizzo’s blackness. That song stayed on repeat. Whenever I felt discarded I would put that song on. It made me feel human.
The next year in 2016 Lizzo woould go on to release the lead single “Good As Hell” for her EP “Coconut Oil.” A song that later go on to be a huge hit in 2019. For as far as I know from the outside looking in everything seemed to be cool at the time. She probably got comments on her weight like any fat person would but it wouldn’t be until she became a Pop star that she would be questioned about her body and her Blackness. Something she always put on display. We’re talking about a woman here who has worked with Prince. Not alot of you can say that.
It feels odd to say but watching Lizzo be proud of herself while making funk inspired pop and r&b music made me feel like “damn I can do this too!” Just as I felt when I first saw RomeoVoid in my teens. I acknowledge that Lizzo is not responsible to be anything to me other than a musician and a entertainer. But just like my mom had Kelly Price in the 90’s who made her feel seen. Lizzo makes me feel seen as well.
Opinion in the public for Lizzo seemed to make a turn in 2019 when she twerked in a thong while showcased on the jumbotron at a Lakers game. Was it inappropriate? That’s literally up to you. Personally, I didn’t see a problem with it. It was just someone showing their ass cheeks. Not like she was naked but it became the center of many discussions and fat jokes online. So much so that Lizzo had to leave Twitter because people seemed more upset that she was fat showing her body than they did that she showed her ass at a Basketball game.
Lizzo got heat for promoting obesity just for simply existing. Yet white people don’t get heat for promoting white supremacy just for existing. How does that work? How does a woman existing in her body promote obesity? What the fuck is promoting obesity?
Like clockwork it also came back to her health. If you’ve never seen Lizzo or if you have seen Lizzo perform, she’s literally playing her instruments, running around on stage, doing choreography and singing at full capacity. Not missing a single beat. Lizzo is probably the healthiest bitch performing at these festivals. And yet she’s unhealthy.
It was weird seeing the people who weren’t even her audience turn on her when they were never for her. How dare she be fat, sexy, talented, famous and proud? This happens all the time with Black women who get any sort of shine. Not just fat Black women but Black women in general.
What is this constant need to humble a Black woman? Someone can chip away at the glass ceiling and no matter how far you get to the ceiling there is more glass being piled on.
Why this conversation now?
Because your problem with Lizzo is only a problem with her weight and her self love. On top of her being a Black woman. People see that and want to see it shattered but maybe if people worked on themselves they wouldn’t have to constantly tear down fat people.
And when that conversation doesn’t stick you call her a Mammy. You redefine mammy just to criticize a body you deem undesirable. What about Lizzo makes her a mammy? Is It because she’s Black and fat?! If that makes a mammy then all of our mothers are also mammys.
[Insert clip 0:00–0:54]
Lizzo:
“This is exactly why I started out the song with “They don’t know I do it for the culture.” These people who are saying this are probably the same people who are mad when I’m being hypersexual and the mammy trope is actually desexualized so it can’t both be true. Make it make sense. I really think people are mad to see a fat Black woman that makes pop music and is happy. Yall are so upset that I’m happy. But this rhetoric doesn’t even bother me because Aretha Franklin was criticized by the Black church when she came out with “Respect.” Whitney Houston was booed at the Soul Train Awards for being too white. Beyoncė recieved criticism early in her career. So you know what? The type of music that I make, I know that I’m making it to be great. I’m making it to touch the world. And I don’t trip on any of these criticisms. I know that the only person I’m serving is myself. I’m on my way to make my dreams come true. I hope you are too.”
In a sit down with Zane Lowe for the release of her single “Rumors” Lizzo said “Fat is the worst thing people can say about me at this point. This is like the biggest insecurity. It’s like ‘How dare a pop star be fat?’…So I had to own that.”
[Rumors by Lizzo & Cardi B plays and fades out]
Lizzo:
Spendin’ all your time tryna break a woman down
Realer shit is goin’ on, baby, take a look around
If you thought that I was ratchet with my ass hangin’ out
Just wait until the summer when they let me out the house, bitch
Host: I obviously did not get to every fat person who has made music in the mainstream. If you would like to add to the conversation you can reach me @planetgroovepod on Twitter and Instagram. If you’d like to donate to make to me I’ll leave my cashapp in the podcast description. I’ll also have the transcript for this episode in the description also. Thank you for listening to Planet Groove and hopefully you’ve enjoyed spending time with me. I’ll see you next week for yet another episode of Planet Grove: a Black and Queer curation. Be blessed.
